Fripp once said to me that as an artist you first have to get people's attention and then you have to be good, very good. What do you think of this?
Hm, let me think. I agree to the extent that if you draw attention,m that you'd better be good, because otherwise you'll get slashed. Let me explain this. When I started Ayreon it was so hugely over the top: a rock opera, a host of well known musicians, a story about King Arthur, knights and time travel, all those cliche's. I really had this idea that if I'd do this with all these familiar names such as Barry Hay (of Golden Earring) and Lenny Wolf (of Kingdom Come), then I will get a lot of attention so it'd better be good, otherwise they'll finish me off. If you make a lot of fuss about your record, you might sell a lot, but only once. I wouldn't want to end up like Sigue-Sigue Sputnik. That to me would be the worst thing possible. For this first record, The Final Experiment, I had to go over the top so much to make people forget about Vengeance (a hardrock band he made name with), to make people forget about my solo album, that I had better make sure that everything was perfectly in order. That is why I went to England to look into the Arthur saga, to make sure everything was correct, but also to visit places where nobody went. For instance, we went to the lake where Excalibur is rumoured to have come from. After a day of looking we finally found this pond, really not big, and we where the only ones there. There was a heap of old iron there and I took some two iron sticks and stood in the water and held them by way of a sword. But I digress...
What I meant with my question is: you need not only draw attention, but there has to be something to what you do as well.
You know, when critics want to say something negative about my projects they wonder whether my success might not be wholly due to all those big names. Usually I simply say yes, because without them I would never have gotten this far. But on the other hand, if you have big names and the music is not good, then forget it, it won't last. I think there are plenty examples of that.
Like Spartacus by Jeff Wayne?
Exactly. That one really stinks. I bought it simply because Fish was on it and so on. But it really sucks and it did not sell at all. And in my case I'm also the person who searches the right person for the right song, who tries all those strange combinations.
Something like The Greatest Show On Earth is not bad at all, but it does sell quite badly it seems.
Well, actually I think this record is a kind of swindle. I mean Arena is fully noted in the credits, but I once asked Clive what he actually did for the record and he said the only thing he did was give them the sample of an explosion. And for this they list all members of Arena. That's bad.
Did you think when you started Ayreon that you since you were doing something of a project, you had to make sure it was noticed in some way?
Well, actually the reason I started Ayreon was that I wanted to do something behind which I could stand one hunderd percent. No compromises to other band members, something I have always done. When I was in Bodine the New Wave Of British Heavy Metal became popular so we tried to play that style. When I played in Vengeance, Van Halen became popular so we had to sound like Van Halen. Then AC/DC became popular: more AC/DC in our music. When I recorded my solo album I wanted to be on the radio so I put only singles on it. The result was a complete failure. Then I thought: shit, for once in my life I want to make a record where all the styles I love are present: psyche and Beatles from the sixties, prog and rock from the seventies, hardrock from the eighties, of course combined with my own style. The farewell tour with Vengeance left me with a lot of money so I thought: that is what I will do. I didn't care if anyone wanted it. Of course, in the nineties it was not done to record a rock opera and certainly not a progressive one. I never had the idea it would turn out this big. When I finished it nobody wanted to take it on until I met Hans van Vuuren of Transmission/Pseudonym Records who found it cool and wanted to do it. It was the first release of a new act he ever did. The first one was officially a solo album: Arjen Anthony Lucassen with the album Ayreon. Later Hans wanted another record, but he wanted it to be done under the name Ayreon. I told him that that was impossible: Ayreon was dead. I mean did the Who change their name into Tommy?
They might have thought about it.
Haha, who knows. Well anyway, I did not like it much. But then again, I am not into marketing, so I thought: "What the hell let's do it". And it turned out Hans was right all the way.
The second one, Actual Fantasy, sold a lot less. What was the problem?
I think a number of factors were involved. First of all, it was a not a Final Experiment Part Two. It was totally different, too different maybe. Second, the album was very electronic. The drum sound was not great and the album did not have any really big names on it. Contrary to the other albums, the vocals were not distinct from the music, but more added as an instrument with fixed vocal melodies. And finally, the album did not have a continuous story, although it was a concept album.
Abbey Of Synn I still think is a great song.
I think Actual Fantasy is fantastic. There are some parts that are not so strong, though. To come back to your first question, maybe it only lacked the focus of attention. But I still think the record is super. The Final Experiment I feel is a bit too bombastic and old fashioned.
Like those synthetic trumpets.
Oh, but I do that on purpose. I prefer them over real ones.
How is the relation between Ayreon and the label Transmission? Does it work well?
Yes, very much. In the beginning I had my doubts, because it was the first new record he had ever released (The label of Hans Van Vuuren, Pseudonym Records, was dedicated to rereleases). But on the other hand: with CBS you were a number. Always having meetings, never calling back. Now I found a person who was wild about the music. What more does one want? He was always there when I called. In fact, he calls me five times a day. And he was the only one at the time who believed in me. No big record company wanted did that. Now they are standing in line. A few them have asked me, wanting to do Ayreon in a big way. First of all, I would not be able to take it on my conscious. Hans believed in me when nobody else would so I am not letting him down. On the other hand, I also like it like this: Hans knows that this is not Bon Jovi, that is still a cult thing, how big the cult might have grown. He knows all the entry points, he is trustworthy and he works hard for me. What more could I want? The only thing with a big company is that you get more money. But what would I do with money? I want to make music and reach as many people as possible. In Japan I am with a large record company JVC, but they won't do anything for me and the record does not sell well. But I get huge advances. When I get an advance from them I can buy myself a new car. Most people would say, why complain? But I want them to work hard for me, I want to continue making music until my eightieth. Money will be spent, but at the moment I am having a hard time selling records in Japan, because having had little in the way of promotion for The Electric Castle, no company there is really interested in the follow-up.
I would think that there is a good market for you in Japan.
Absolutely. But for Electric Castle I did not do any interview at all in Japan. For these two new ones I did 200 interviews: two entire weeks in Germany, a week in France.
The Electric Castle was a double record for the price of one. Seems a bit like a getting-to-know-Ayreon-record.
Electric Castle was absolutely a record with which I had to drag myself out of a black hole. Actual Fantasy had done a lot worse than the first one and I was thinking that if it would go further downhill again, it would mean the finish of Ayreon. So I knew I had to do really well. I had a lot of ideas. Twenty workmen were working on my house at the time, outside and I was inside the house feeling that I had to work hard as well. So I was composing away, everything went great and ended up with so much that I could fill a double cd. But a double disc is dangerous, because it is much more expensive. So I told the record company that for once I wanted the double record to be sold for the price of a single one. That was impossible, because you have to pay twice the copyrights, double pressing costs, I wanted a thick plastic box and a thick booklet to go with it. Hans told me that he could sell it for a little more than a single disc, but that I would be the one paying for the difference: I would not get anything extra for it being a double. So that is what happened then. The reason I don't do that now is simply that these two discs are very different and I would not want people wanting the one to have to buy the other. And of course I can not keep on selling them cheaply, because then I would be finished financially. And they are both full cds.
Sure enough. It is surprising that the two discs are so different. Instead of songdirected and heavy mixed on an album, you now have two single discs, one for each aspect.
Yes, and that was dangerous as well. The power of Ayreon lies in variation: from quiet to metal to symphonic to folky to pop, all those aspects. But I do not like repeating myself, making a part two is a loss of time. And "part two" is always compared to the previous one. And, be honest, Close To The Edge Part Two by Yes could never have the class if the original. The same holds for movies. After The Electric Castle I got this idea to split the two styles and then it HAD to be like this. I did think I would be criticized for having this split, losing the variation. I mean, the quiet one should be kept interesting. But on the other hand, Pink Floyd could also do this on Wish You Were Here.
But that one is much shorter.
That is true. It is only about forty minutes, so mine is almost twice as long.
Lots of people do underestimate this. A full cd is about a double lp in the old days.
You are right. And 45 to 50 minutes should be enough. Funny thing is that I sometimes call the record company I tell Hans that 50 should be enough. Then he says that 50 is absolutely mininum. But when I am finished with the record and start adding it comes to 65 to 70 minutes. I can't listen to these long cds myself. I listen very intensely between the speakers with the lights out. But I can only do that for an hour or so, so I am happy when a record is only 49 minutes.
Some labels do fill their cds to capacity with music, maybe to give people more for their money. What do you think of this?
Well I do not like bonustracks. Those are tracks that were to weak to make it so I do not want to hear them. My records also tell a story. In Japan they insist on bonus tracks, because otherwise people will buy the cheaper import instead of the Japanese pressing which is much more expensive. So they wanted a bonus track for the Final Experiment, but Ayreon is dead! He can't sing when he is dead, can he? Or with Jesus Christ Superstar: Jesus has been nailed to the cross and... Anyway, we put in twenty seconds of extra stuff in there. Of course when I walk into a shop where they have Wish You Were Here with five bonustracks..... By the way, I will release a cd with songs from the albums sung by different singers like The Black Hole sung by Damian Wilson. But this will be a full disc that will not be expensive.
I like the first, quieter one, The Dream Sequencer, the best. What about you?
I think the first one has better songs. I spent four times as long on the first record and worked four times as hard as well. The second is mostly built on power. If you sit back for it, then the first one is better, and if you want power the second one is for you. Maybe it depends on one's mood. However, it is true that I could never have made the quieter one without the loud one. These loud ideas keep on popping up, it is a part of me. This time I had to constantly tell myself: no, don't put it on the quiet one, away, away. Later I could put all of that on the second one, and that record was finished in a few months. It is much easier for me. Of course the first one has its share of loud bombastic moments, I couldn't leave those out. But metal guitars can only be found on the second one.
The Dream Sequencer has quite a lot of Floyd influences. Unexpected?
Not really. Take Computer Eyes of Actual Fantasy for instance, which is also very Floydian. Floyd is to me the ultimate band and nothing comes remotely close. This has been so for ages. When I decided to make a quiet record my first thought was to listen to Wish You Were Here, to hear how they do that: quiet yet interesting. Like you said earlier Wish You Were Here is quite a bit shorter and after the record has finished one has had enough, but still. Looking back, I do think that the record may have too many Floyd influences, especially the instrumental beginning and end.
Well the vocal parts are not that Floydian and of course the vocals are very different, more rock and pop.
Exactly. A lot of it comes from The Beatles and of course also my own particular style. I do things Floyd would never do, that is the good thing about it. But still...that beginning
Actually, I think people are used to that. And if you happen to make music remotely like Shine On You Crazy Diamond, then it is so easy to spot.
It is very funny that. A lot of bands are influenced by Genesis and Yes and that's fine. But Pink Floyd can only be copied. I am not sure why this is. Floyd also doesn't think they belong within the progressive rock genre, together with Genesis or Yes. Gilmour doesn't understand it at all. Like I often do not understand why my fans like what they like.
I heard you did an interview with Gilmour. What was that like?
Well, a super event of course. I was called a few days beforehand and actually I did not really dare. As a musician he is my idol, not as a person though. And I thought I could ask him for the next Ayreon record as well. When I met him I told him: "Hi, I'm a fellow musician, I'm nervous like hell and this will be a disaster". But he was very nice, quite positive, but there was a bad aftertaste: he does not seem to be interested in music at all. He doesn't like prog at all, made a face when I talked of Genesis. I listed ten bands that were influenced by Floyd and he didn't know a single one of them. Not even Camel. He said that literally: "Don't know Camel". I could not understand that. But then again, his past is so much different from mine. Having grown up with blues and rock 'n' roll, that is what he returns to. Like I return to Floyd. But I do try to keep interested in new music. Every week I visit the record shops to listen to a stack of new discs. I don't like any of them, but still. I do buy stuff, but I also sell them later as well, haha. What did Gilmour say as a reaction to your invitation?
He put the cd in his bag, but didn't seem interested.
People who play in a band sometimes have the tendency to turn away from other music.
Well, I used to have this as well, but I got over that. In the eighties when I played in hardrock band, you were jealous of every band that was better. Other bands sucked to begin with, you even hoped they really sucked. I am passed that now, but when they recently asked me to compile a Top 60 I couldn't think of anything from the eighties. That was the time I didn't allow myself to like those bands and it seems that when you have that aversion, it is there to stay. Maybe it was a great time for music.
Other influences then. Rainbow?
Yes, what Pink Floyd is on the level of...well it is not progressive... let us say any other kind of music, Rainbow is to me for rock. Rainbow Rising is the ultimate record in that genre. I think you hear a lot of that on the heavy record: Chaos is very Blackmore influenced, Dawn Of A Million Souls is my attempt at Stargazer. Blackmore is also heavily influenced by folk and those are on the quiet record, like Carried By The Wind. Rainbow also made tracks like Temple Of The King and if they hadn't I might never have found the title Temple Of The Cat. The music of this track of course has nothing to do with Rainbow.
Both records are doing really well I heard?
Yes they do. Together they passed The Electric Castle, but if they each go over it, then we are really talking huge sales. In Germany I entered the Album Top 100, with two records at once, something that had not occurred since Use Your Illusion of Guns 'n' Roses. And my records also differ very much. Everybody is always saying that he sells a lot, but I can show that it is true.
Do people tend to buy both?
The fans do. In the beginning they were going at the same rate, but what I already expected is now happening: the heavy one is doing better. This has to do with the fact that I did a lot of interviews with metal magazines, ninety percent or so. Metal fans are much easier to reach. How can I reach all the people who like Floyd? Most of them will never hear about Ayreon at all, which is a terrible feeling actually. Also, the fans of heavy music know exactly what and when something will come out, especially if Bruce Dickinson participates.
Your stories are usually fantasy and science fiction. Do you also read a lot of those books?
No, not at all. I never read books, but I do watch a lot of series and movies in those genres.
The idea of The Universal Migrator, where does it come from?
Not of any particular movie. I try never to steal anything. Influences, sure, but when I see something I never think: hey that's a good idea, let's use it. In my case, I just go jogging and the ideas come. The idea for this record is about the tenth one. I started out with the idea to make a "female" and a "male" record, the first one with female singers and the second with only male singers. But it turned out that I could never find enough female singers, so that idea didn't work. The next idea was 2084: on the quiet record I would put a story of the world when they had listened to Ayreon on The Final Experiment. But it turned out to be a very moralistic story. In this way a lot of stories were tried until I decided that I did not want the singers to sing together, but to give them each a song, contrary to what happened on The Electric Castle. But then the problem is how to make a story out of that, so then I happened on the idea that it might be that somebody under hypnosis goes back to his former lives and that's how it turned out.
The best track in my opinion on the record is My House On Mars. Who is this Edlund who sings this track.
He is the singer of Tiamat.
He looks a bit like Marilyn Manson.
Yes, he does on the photo. He's bald and fully made up. Really a Gothic figure. A very distinctive person. Tiamat like myself has been influenced strongly by Floyd and their last two records are supercool. I had this very depressing song, so I had to have him sing it. But I had heard stories about him: depressions, drugs. Anyway, I e-mailed his manager and within two days it was settled. He was very interested and liked Ayreon. He came over to my place and he stayed for two days, not saying a word. Not a word. Bit of a weird guy, not an asshole or anything, a nice guy.
Just a little quiet.
Verrrrry quiet. But he did give that song that extra something. It was a completely different track in the end. It was the worst track of the record. Then I turned things around and now it's the best one in my opinion as well.
Neal Morse, for instance, has quite a different personality.
Haha, yes, very different: "Hey man, your album is killer. I love your drums, man. I want to have them too. You wanna produce my next album. You're fucking great man." This is the good part about all those musicians, that you encounter all these extremes. Anyway, I gave Neal the choice to be on either the heavy record or to sing a Beatles like track on the quieter one.
I guess the decision was easy.
Yep, I said the magic word.
I do think it fits him very well: optimistic and Beatles influenced.
Lots of people tell me that I made the song sound like Spock's Beard on purpose, but that is just what he does with his voice. The song wasn't even meant for him, because Sarah Bettens of K's Choice should have sung it. She backed out.
On Neal's solo record he also makes it sound like Spock's Beard. The songs are of a different type, but still.
Same with Transatlantic. The first track is super. It is not a project with a bunch of jams. Really top.
Are there people, whom you really admire, but of whom you say: they would never fit on an Ayreon record.
Hmm, original question. It is very hard to get people outside the hardrock and progressive scenes to begin with. I was talking of Sarah Bettens who backed out, because she didn't dare do it. I asked Donovan to be the hippy on the Electric Castle. I wanted to get Paul McCartney, ridiculous of course, but one never knows. Bowie...there are many people I'd like to get, but outside my style they are hard to get. Except for Mouse then. He used to sing in Tuesday Child, a britpopband I really liked. And even that took some trouble. He was also meant to do the hippy part for The Electric Castle, but I did it myself in the end. Now he does The Shooting Company. Angelo Branduardi had almost sung Carried By The Wind, but it fell through. Buy I will always ask them, always. But I guess you know how it is: it doesn't help them to play on an Ayreon record, it will not make them more well known.
On Temple Of The Cat Jacqueline Govaert sings the lead. How did you find her? She's not part of the prog scene. Well, I was looking for a singer for Temple Of The Cat and I was hoping Mathilde Santing would do it, but she did not get back to me. Then I went to the studio where I do the mix to pick up a guitar and there was this tape playing of a female singer with piano. I really liked it and in my mind I was already thinking of the song with the voice of the singer. Now the guy who works there, Oskar, had told me earlier that he had to work with a band with three girls and I already felt sorry him, but it turned out to be the band I then heard playing, Krezip. Behind Oskar on the couch was this girl and she was the girl singing the song. So I asked her whether she wanted to sing on my record and she told me in this chirpy voice: "Oooh, singing on a rock opera, that's fun". She was a nobody at the time, so I thought I was giving her a break. Now they sell four times what I sell.
You could exploit it by putting a sticker on your record, haha. NO! NO WAY! No stickers on my records.
In the Shooting Company Of Frans B.Cocq I guess you specifically wanted to avoid the title The Night Watch?
Yes, and the title also has a Sgt. Pepper feeling.
When I first saw the title, I thought: "What is this?" But then I looked in the booklet and it turned out to be so simple.
The nice thing is that the name The Night Watch is total nonsense. It is not even night, but through the years the painting has become much darker. The official title is something like five lines and it does start with "The Shooting Company Of Captain Frans Benninck Cocq and Lieutenant Wilhelm Ruijter who are walking...." so it is really part of the title. With the title having this Sgt. Pepper feel and Mouse having a voice like John Lennon, it seemed to me a nice mix of Beatles and Floyd.
A nice idea to have Ayreon return in Carried By The Wind.
Yes, I've had many reactions to that. I hadn't thought for a minute that people would like that. It was quite accidental as well. I was looking for era's that I wanted to feature on the album. I tried to avoid the ones I used on The Electric Castle: romans, egyptians, indians. The Middle Ages were fine, but what should I take? Well, Ayreon of course. So that is a nice link to the first record. As it turns out there is a link to every single Ayreon disc and in this way a kinf of "world of Ayreon" is created. The stories are all quite different, but you find that 2084 has an obvious link to The Final Experiment. On Actual Fantasy you find a track about a person who can never go to Earth, just like in My House On Mars and on the second record we arrive at Planet Y in Andromeda in the M31 Galaxy. This turns out to be the place where Forever lives, the creature of The Electric Castle. It makes you think that it might be nice to add to this network. But I am not sure yet.
The idea of the druids turning to stone, is that yours?
Yes it is. It may seem a bit dumb, but all my ideas come from a children encyclopedia. It contains a very nice overview of all history and of course Stonehenge is featured as a great riddle. I have visited it as well, so it has a special place for me. In Spinal Tap you can see that they ridicule Stonehenge, so it is hard to take on the subject and keep it serious. The name Stonehenge is also not mentioned in the booklet, but it is obvious that that is what it is about. The riddle of Stonehenge is obviously how those stones got their in the first place and they have not solved it yet. At a certain point I got this idea of all these druids standing in a circle and speaking some magic words and turning to stone.
I think it is a poetic idea and the atmosphere of the song is magical.
A nice aspect of it is that it plays in England and that it is Damian who is singing it. When he sang "Salisbury Plain" and I asked him whether the pronounciation was alright, he told me that he passed it on his bike everyday. The funny thing is that Damian did not like the song at all at first. I had sung it myself and send it to him and then he called me: "Arjen, you know I'm a big Ayreon fan, the biggest in the world. And you know I'm a big Arjen fan too. Hey man, I don't like the song". So I called him back saying: "If you don't like the song, don't do it". But he wanted to do it anyway, because it was Ayreon. I think it is one of my talents of knowing who fits best with what, because I didn't give him a new song -- there wasn't one anyway -- and I knew that he could put everything in: loud, soft, high, low. So I told him to make the song his own and that is what he did. Later he called to say that I was right. Typical guy. He always has these problems. Really a nice guy, but tiring.
Great drama in that voice. I
ncredible and that is just how he is. All those emotions are real. Nothing faked.
What are the Sarsen Trilithons? Those are stones in the form of a horseshoe. Sarsen is sandstone and comes from Saracen. Damian also didn't know so he asked me whether it really existed. So I told him yes and to just sing it.
Ayreon does start to become a kind of steady group: Damian, Reekers, Warby...
Yeah, it is starting: Warby on drums, Norlander on keys, myself on bass and guitar and then Lana Lane, Edward Reekers and Damian on vocals. You see, at some point you meet people with whom you really hit it off. Recently I saw a list of questions to Ed Warby about bands and such and it was exactly my own list. I really kick on Damian's voice and every month he loyally calls me. He really likes what I do. Same goes for Reekers.
Are there more of those people.
I have used Robert Soeterbroek a few times now, with his rough voice. Clive Nolan has played with Ayreon twice, but I have a stronger bond with Erik Norlander. Erik and I are like brothers and that does not only hold for music. We like the same movies, we have the same kind of humor.
I noticed that it is not people that you select...
(laughing) No, animals as well
...but you are getting to be asked quite a bit as well, like Erik Norlander's solo record, Glass Hammer.
Well, I have always done that, but it gets more attention now.
Your name does get advertised, like for Glass Hammer.
I think so too. I only do three solo's, and they took me only two hours of my life. I mean, I could have shopped at the supermarket during that time. I got it over the mail and on the same day I played the three solo's. I called them to tell them that I had gotten the material and so they asked me: "Hey, that's great, when are you going to do it?" So I told them I had done it already and called to play it for them. They thought it was good so I mailed the stuff back immediately. Erik Norlander and Lana Lane took a lot more time of course. I played all of the guitar parts there and it took me three days. Well, what can I say? Maybe I did a little too much. Recently I read in a French mag that they had finally found a cd on which I DIDN'T play. Then it becomes a bit dangerous, so I try to do a lot less.
Who is Gjalt?
He's my brother. When I was young he often teased me. He finished gymnasium when he was seventeen and was super intellectual. I was the loser who got kicked of school, had bad marks. He used to tease me a lot with this. And also with by bad music taste. At some point I had bought Aqua by Froese and he was going like: watch out you don't blow up your amplifiers. He used to come and see me play with Vengeance some time and put me down when people came asking for an autograph. But then I started doing Ayreon, having success with the music he liked himself. He really loves The Dream Sequencer and now we often call and visit concerts together. Recently we went to Bospop together and we are the best of friends. But I can't omit putting one over him on every record, every record has such a reference to him. In this way he is becoming a kind of cult figure.
You are a guitarist, but you do seem to have something with keyboards as well. Which do you prefer?
Well, I am a much better guitarplayer, because I have always focused on them. Keyboards I am not really able to play, but they are so much more versatile. Especially those analogue keyboards. At the moment I have about every single one. I am not really sure what I like best, but, you know, when I then hear Gilmour play...super.
I feel more emotion in guitar, but los of music with "just guitars" is too boring.
Well, keyboards have many more dimensions. And Keith Emerson can put a lot of emotion into his playing. Also aggression. With the digital shit of today there is no feeling at all. It really sucks. Computer on, programmed sounds, yuck. But those old synths where you had to construct your own sounds, turn the knobs, move the slides. I think you can put a lot into that. I also need vocals. If ELP hadn't had the vocals of Lake I would have liked them a lot less. It is the combination of Lake's songs like Lucky Man and Take A Pebble and Emerson's bombast that makes it work for me. So I always need those songs, virtuosity alone is not enough. I think Floyd is also playing songs all the time.
Well, Wish You Were Here, yes, but One Of These Days is quite different again. Menacing.
Yes, menace, and the slide solo at the end. Ah.
I prefer the beginning myself.
Oh yes the delay on the bass. He only plays tick...tick...tick and then the delay turns into toododootodootodoo and so on. I did something like that myself in Computer Eyes, but then on the synth.
You invite all these people to play on your records. In the booklet I found that some visit you at home and some record the stuff at their own place. Can you make it clear to the latter ones what you are after?
I always want to be present with the singers. Otherwise I can not make them clear what I want, I prefer to direct every line. The only exception I made this time was with Russell Allen of Symphony X. Otherwise I would have to go to New Jersey again. So I just send it over and told him to let me hear it through the phone. When he did I got tears in my eyes. He asked me: "Hey, what do you think?" and me crying and he again: "Ah man, you are pulling my leg", but I was really crying. For the musicians, like Clive Nolan or Keiko (of Ars Nova), I have so much confidence in these people that I just send them the tapes. And those solo's are so peronsal. The only thing I demand is: no digital shit. But to get back to the singers: it's not that I direct them all the way. I try to let the singer do what he does best and like with Damian if there is something they do not like, then I let them change it. I would be crazy to limit these super musicians. I did it during The Final Experiment and later on Actual Fantasy, but never afterwards.
How did it work out with Bruce Dickinson?
Very differently. He heard the song in my car, Lana Lane and Damian had sung the track. He really got a kick out of the song. He listened to it twice, stood up and sung three takes in a row. No intervention necessary. Later I made a single track out of these three versions. One line from that one version, another from another one. The same I did with Fish on The Electric Castle.
I really like his performance. The problem with Iron Maiden is that he often sings with too much pitch. I don't like that.
That only works if it is only once in a while. That was always my problem with Damian in Threshold: too much over the top. Take it easy and only then let it rip. It comes over much better and it irritates much less.
Do you start with a song and find a person or vice versa?
Well, I'm busy already with the next Ayreon and I have no clue who I will ask to perform. I work for two years or somewhat less on a record, so I really don't know who is available. I might want Bruce Dickinson to sing on my record, but if it doesn't come off I'm stuck with a song written for him. So I first write all the music. Then I'll be looking for vocalists. I have a list of a hundred singers I really like. Half of them are dead so I can remove those. Then I check to see whom I can get to, whether I know someone he or she knows. When I have all the singers I have to spread them over the songs alwyas keeping an eye out for drop-outs and such. It is quite a puzzle, but it always comes together, like it was always meant to be like that. I do try to put a singer on a song where he does something different from what he ordinarily does. I mean I am not going to put Bruce Dickinson on a fast Maiden like track. No, I give him a totally different track so that he can put things in there that he can not put into Iron Maiden.
When your albums were announced I read that you lock yourself up to make a record: no newspapers and such.
Well I don't read newspapers to begin with, don't watch television and I don't really have a social life. Usually I am alone with my wife. I have ten cats or so and I like them better than people. They take care of themselves and you know where you are with them.
You're kind of a loner then?
Yes, absolutely. I work seven days a week on music and live in the middle of nowhere, no neighbours. Not that I am afraid of people, but I do not have the need. Sometimes I visit the sauna with a friend to talk and relax a bit. I never go out, except to concerts. Like Bospop with Spock's Beard, Flower Kings, Dream Theater, Satriani and Within Temptation. A very nice atmosphere there. Very unlike Dynamo Open Air which was one 'motherfuck' after the other. So aggressive. I was there with Hans and I told him that if I heard one more 'motherfuck', I would go home. Before I had told him this I had heard another three of them. Makes me crazy.
Bit of a pose.
Well you are not allowed to swear in the US so that is what you get. Like not being allowed to drink after eleven in England: everybody's boozing. It's all so dumb. Ah well.
During the record playing we already talked a bit about your Strange Hobby cover project. Are you planning to do more of that?
Well, I have some projects lying about. I plan to buy a new recording system called ProTools. Everything is done over hard disc and is really complicated with two computers. Now I am not the kind of guy who reads manuals so I want to learn about the system in a playful way. Now, the idea is that if you remove all instruments on my records except the keyboards then you are left with four Tangerine Dream records. Funny maybe, but everything is based on sequencers. Those layers I want to retrieve and then put a fragile female voice over it and in this way I hope to learn about this system.
Why a singer at all?
Well that would be too much like TD. I don't want that. They did it so well and at the moment you hve Redshift and Radio Massacre International doing it really well, so what could I possibly add? That is project number one. Then there are some musicians who want to do a record with me. Bruce Dickinson for instance wants to do a record, so that's interesting. And then to the next Ayreon record. Strange Hobby was a big failure that I won't do it again, however fun it was to do.